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Why I left the church
[06:43] Brontes: What religion were you before you turned furry? :)
[06:42] Ristin: I was "uniting church" until I turned 7 and was old enough to realize it was nonsense. I doubted since I was 5 though... Funnily enough people use the fact I am a furry and gay to explain why I am not Christian but the truth is the reason is Christian behavior. Here in Australia I saw people preaching that Jesus is great and peaceful and merciful and tolerant...and that he gives Christians a right to judge and condemn and be intolerant and act superior and be proideful. They said poverty and charity were admirable but the clergy dwelt in opulent temple-palaces (churches looked that way to me when I was a child). I became a furry at 22 or so, long after leaving Christianity.
[06:43] Brontes: well done Ristin. :)
[06:43] Ristin: Uniting church is a alliance of the methodist church and the 'smaller absorbed one' that had been feuding and the conflict was enough to cause street violence in my parents and grandparents time
[06:43] Brontes: Don't worry about Catholicism. We were raised with magic and crapola. As a result we believe anything.
[06:44] Ristin: I couldn't be a Christian because I care about others too much, don't think I am perfect and am willing to let other people live their own lives.
[06:44] Ristin: (mind if I post that conversation in LJ later?)
[06:46] Brontes: :)
[06:46] Brontes: Please do.
[06:42] Ristin: I was "uniting church" until I turned 7 and was old enough to realize it was nonsense. I doubted since I was 5 though... Funnily enough people use the fact I am a furry and gay to explain why I am not Christian but the truth is the reason is Christian behavior. Here in Australia I saw people preaching that Jesus is great and peaceful and merciful and tolerant...and that he gives Christians a right to judge and condemn and be intolerant and act superior and be proideful. They said poverty and charity were admirable but the clergy dwelt in opulent temple-palaces (churches looked that way to me when I was a child). I became a furry at 22 or so, long after leaving Christianity.
[06:43] Brontes: well done Ristin. :)
[06:43] Ristin: Uniting church is a alliance of the methodist church and the 'smaller absorbed one' that had been feuding and the conflict was enough to cause street violence in my parents and grandparents time
[06:43] Brontes: Don't worry about Catholicism. We were raised with magic and crapola. As a result we believe anything.
[06:44] Ristin: I couldn't be a Christian because I care about others too much, don't think I am perfect and am willing to let other people live their own lives.
[06:44] Ristin: (mind if I post that conversation in LJ later?)
[06:46] Brontes: :)
[06:46] Brontes: Please do.
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Ristin, you must have been surrounded by church ladies a la Dana Carvey. Christians do not believe they are perfect. They may strive for perfection, but they know darned well they will fall short again and again and are taught to "forgive others their trespasses." Does the phrase, "All have sinned and all have fallen short of the glory of God" ring a bell? That includes the Christians. The real Christians know it's true. Not supposed to hate and not supposed to gossip. Simply supposed to be the face of Jesus.
The Christians I know feed the homeless, aid poor, unwed mothers and other needy folks, sit by bedsides in nursing homes, comfort the dying and their relatives, and pray for lots of people. They drive the elderly and handicapped to doctors' appointments, mend houses, and do all this while striving to live in a way Jesus would approve. Which is tough going.
I'm not sure "caring about others" and "letting them live their own lives" are wholly compatible concepts. It's surely a lot easier to not get involved, but isn't it better to try to talk someone out of self-destructive behaviour, particularly if you care about them?
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Through my LJ you will find many examples of me siezing upon any shred of good I hear from Christians and posting it loud and clear in my journal. Take a look.
Christians do not believe they are perfect. They may strive for perfection, but they know darned well they will fall short again and again and are taught to "forgive others their trespasses." Does the phrase, "All have sinned and all have fallen short of the glory of God" ring a bell?
But they don't forgive others their trespasses. That's what I object to.
That includes the Christians. The real Christians know it's true.
Well like I said I have met a couple of Christians who get that and who I consider to be good people. Also in the news I have seen a few examples of good deeds (and remarkable deeds) from Christians and am quick to post them.
The Christians I know feed the homeless, aid poor, unwed mothers and other needy folks, sit by bedsides in nursing homes, comfort the dying and their relatives, and pray for lots of people. They drive the elderly and handicapped to doctors' appointments, mend houses, and do all this while striving to live in a way Jesus would approve. Which is tough going.
I never have seen Christians do this sort of thing. Not a single one. I expect there are Christian members of charity groups. We also have a group called the salvation army that is Christian and they raise money for the unfortunate. Who they give the money to and how it is distributed I do not know. They mostly run op-shops selling items the public donate to them.
No, I mostly see Christians telling other people how evil they are and that they are imperfect and will go to hell. No help or charity at all.
I'm not sure "caring about others" and "letting them live their own lives" are wholly compatible concepts.
Letting someone live freely and not threatening them with hell and damnation would be a good start. And when helping someone, help them for the sake of helping not as an opportunity to preach, meddle and try to change them.
isn't it better to try to talk someone out of self-destructive behaviour, particularly if you care about them?
If your objective is to give useful advice and to help the person...that's good. If your objective is to tell them how un-Christian they are, that only Jesus saves, that they should repent and convert to your faith...that's preying upon someone when they are vulnerable, and is definitely not good.
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The firebrands are also the ones tainting the perception of all Christians including the 'everyday good Christians' that I like to believe make up the bulk of the faith. If the hypothesised 'silent majority' of Christians would put the vocal minority in its place...it would do a lot of good for the Christian faith, the perception of Christians in society and also the health of western society in general.
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He is in complete agreement with you concerning hellfire and brimstone preachers. Somewhere in there is a statement to the effect that there are Buddhists closer to Jesus than certain ministers in pulpits.
You do not see the quiet Christians because they were specifically commanded to not be boastful of their good works, and they take it seriously. I say "they" because my fellow church members are better at this sort of thing than I am. Example: a lady who works part time cleaning our church is not a member. Her husband was laid low with cancer for months in the hospital over an hour away--clearly dying. Neither of these people are members of our church. Without saying anything about it to anyone, the elders (men and women) took over her duties while continuing to pay her salary. I only knew about it because I happened to overhear two of them discussing what still needed to be done that night. Our minister, not in the best of health himself, drove down there several times a week to offer comfort.
I'm not sure humble Christians can put anyone in his place--again, you see, it's the thing about all being sinners and all having redemption as a possibility. Put them in their place forcefully enough and soon you'll need to be put in YOUR place. But we have so many churches in America, that if you find a particular preacher to be false, you simply move on until you find a better church.
As to the homeless, the members go one night a week to the cold weather shelter. This is not our "regular" homeless shelter. This one takes the people the other one can't because they have alcohol or drug addictions or for some other reason are not willing to abide by the rules of the other shelter.
After being respectfully checked for weapons (sorry, a necessity), they are given food, conversation (yes, we'll certainly talk about God if they want to) and a clean warm place to spend the night. In the morning, they get a hot breakfast, and the volunteers are more than willing to fix them a lunch to take with if they desire.
This is not just one church in our little town. It's lots of them, big and small, working together and taking turns to do what they can to help. Works for us.
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I was tempted to ask you to pretend to be an atheist or a lesbian and see how other Christians treat you...but that would be too cruel, too risky.
When I say 'risky', I mean that I assume you are correct about inter-church communication...so the last thing I would want is someone helpfully outing you to your family, telling them you are a devil-child (atheist) or any other feedback like that.
Better advice would be to tell you to try and see your faith through the eyes of people outside it. You yourself might be a good person but most of the Christians that non-Christians encounter are...well, they are not to put it bluntly.
If you can see how others see Christians, then it might help you to show them there is a good side to Christians. Which would help...
I don't know.
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You'd hardly expect me to change my sexuality to suit others--why should I change my faith?
As to being "out," in modern America, I would argue it's much easier particularly in metropolitan areas to be out as gay than to be out as Christian. Seriously. Particularly in academic environments. Yes, there's gay-bashing that goes on, especially for people who frequent bars in odd parts of town, but no woman with half a brain would wander by herself late at night in those parts, and I suppose the same holds true for men.
I remember feminist friends at college being wildly indignant that they couldn't act like men on the party circuit. I understood their indignation, but nothing rational was going to change the fact that drunk men lose all vestige of civilization.
As to outspoken counterculture Christians, perhaps you are not aware of the liberal swing many established Christian churches have taken in America--particularly in regards the ordination of openly gay clergy? It's splitting many of these churches in two: Episcopalian, Presbyterian, etc. I'd be surprised if there were not something similar going on in Australian churches.
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Sad but not surprising.
You'd hardly expect me to change my sexuality to suit others--why should I change my faith?
I meant to pretend, to go to a different congregation and pretend you were one of those things and see how you were treated. But don't do it, it's not a good idea.
As to outspoken counterculture Christians, perhaps you are not aware of the liberal swing many established Christian churches have taken in America--particularly in regards the ordination of openly gay clergy?
It's a good and long-overdue return to core Christian principles as taught by Jesus Christ. I approve completely and wish them well.