ristin | Why I left the church

Ristin: I couldn't be a Christian because I care about others too much, don't think I am perfect and am willing to let other people live their own lives.

Ristin, you must have been surrounded by church ladies a la Dana Carvey. Christians do not believe they are perfect. They may strive for perfection, but they know darned well they will fall short again and again and are taught to "forgive others their trespasses." Does the phrase, "All have sinned and all have fallen short of the glory of God" ring a bell? That includes the Christians. The real Christians know it's true. Not supposed to hate and not supposed to gossip. Simply supposed to be the face of Jesus.
The Christians I know feed the homeless, aid poor, unwed mothers and other needy folks, sit by bedsides in nursing homes, comfort the dying and their relatives, and pray for lots of people. They drive the elderly and handicapped to doctors' appointments, mend houses, and do all this while striving to live in a way Jesus would approve. Which is tough going.
I'm not sure "caring about others" and "letting them live their own lives" are wholly compatible concepts. It's surely a lot easier to not get involved, but isn't it better to try to talk someone out of self-destructive behaviour, particularly if you care about them?

I have met a few Christians in recent years. Pretty much until I got to university I hadn't. Although that's where I first started getting targeted by evangelical preachers and other 'bad examples'. There were good Christians but more bad than good.

Through my LJ you will find many examples of me siezing upon any shred of good I hear from Christians and posting it loud and clear in my journal. Take a look.

Christians do not believe they are perfect. They may strive for perfection, but they know darned well they will fall short again and again and are taught to "forgive others their trespasses." Does the phrase, "All have sinned and all have fallen short of the glory of God" ring a bell?
But they don't forgive others their trespasses. That's what I object to.

That includes the Christians. The real Christians know it's true.
Well like I said I have met a couple of Christians who get that and who I consider to be good people. Also in the news I have seen a few examples of good deeds (and remarkable deeds) from Christians and am quick to post them.

The Christians I know feed the homeless, aid poor, unwed mothers and other needy folks, sit by bedsides in nursing homes, comfort the dying and their relatives, and pray for lots of people. They drive the elderly and handicapped to doctors' appointments, mend houses, and do all this while striving to live in a way Jesus would approve. Which is tough going.

I never have seen Christians do this sort of thing. Not a single one. I expect there are Christian members of charity groups. We also have a group called the salvation army that is Christian and they raise money for the unfortunate. Who they give the money to and how it is distributed I do not know. They mostly run op-shops selling items the public donate to them.

No, I mostly see Christians telling other people how evil they are and that they are imperfect and will go to hell. No help or charity at all.

I'm not sure "caring about others" and "letting them live their own lives" are wholly compatible concepts.
Letting someone live freely and not threatening them with hell and damnation would be a good start. And when helping someone, help them for the sake of helping not as an opportunity to preach, meddle and try to change them.

isn't it better to try to talk someone out of self-destructive behaviour, particularly if you care about them?
If your objective is to give useful advice and to help the person...that's good. If your objective is to tell them how un-Christian they are, that only Jesus saves, that they should repent and convert to your faith...that's preying upon someone when they are vulnerable, and is definitely not good.

I like to think that I have been disproportionately unlucky with the Christians (and Muslims) I have met. I also recognize that the Christians I mostly notice are not representative...they are the vocal firebrands preaching fire and brimstone.

The firebrands are also the ones tainting the perception of all Christians including the 'everyday good Christians' that I like to believe make up the bulk of the faith. If the hypothesised 'silent majority' of Christians would put the vocal minority in its place...it would do a lot of good for the Christian faith, the perception of Christians in society and also the health of western society in general.

May I recommend Mere Christianity by Lewis if you haven't already tried it?
He is in complete agreement with you concerning hellfire and brimstone preachers. Somewhere in there is a statement to the effect that there are Buddhists closer to Jesus than certain ministers in pulpits.

You do not see the quiet Christians because they were specifically commanded to not be boastful of their good works, and they take it seriously. I say "they" because my fellow church members are better at this sort of thing than I am. Example: a lady who works part time cleaning our church is not a member. Her husband was laid low with cancer for months in the hospital over an hour away--clearly dying. Neither of these people are members of our church. Without saying anything about it to anyone, the elders (men and women) took over her duties while continuing to pay her salary. I only knew about it because I happened to overhear two of them discussing what still needed to be done that night. Our minister, not in the best of health himself, drove down there several times a week to offer comfort.

I'm not sure humble Christians can put anyone in his place--again, you see, it's the thing about all being sinners and all having redemption as a possibility. Put them in their place forcefully enough and soon you'll need to be put in YOUR place. But we have so many churches in America, that if you find a particular preacher to be false, you simply move on until you find a better church.
As to the homeless, the members go one night a week to the cold weather shelter. This is not our "regular" homeless shelter. This one takes the people the other one can't because they have alcohol or drug addictions or for some other reason are not willing to abide by the rules of the other shelter.
After being respectfully checked for weapons (sorry, a necessity), they are given food, conversation (yes, we'll certainly talk about God if they want to) and a clean warm place to spend the night. In the morning, they get a hot breakfast, and the volunteers are more than willing to fix them a lunch to take with if they desire.
This is not just one church in our little town. It's lots of them, big and small, working together and taking turns to do what they can to help. Works for us.

You raise good points.

I was tempted to ask you to pretend to be an atheist or a lesbian and see how other Christians treat you...but that would be too cruel, too risky.

When I say 'risky', I mean that I assume you are correct about inter-church communication...so the last thing I would want is someone helpfully outing you to your family, telling them you are a devil-child (atheist) or any other feedback like that.

Better advice would be to tell you to try and see your faith through the eyes of people outside it. You yourself might be a good person but most of the Christians that non-Christians encounter are...well, they are not to put it bluntly.
If you can see how others see Christians, then it might help you to show them there is a good side to Christians. Which would help...

I don't know.

I have friends who are pagan, atheist, Christian, green party, Catholic, gay, and probably bi-, for what it's worth. Since I have openly become a Christian, the pagans, with one exception, have ceased communicating with me. And, no, I didn't try to do a hard conversion with them. They asked about my religious experiences, and when asked I told them.

You'd hardly expect me to change my sexuality to suit others--why should I change my faith?

As to being "out," in modern America, I would argue it's much easier particularly in metropolitan areas to be out as gay than to be out as Christian. Seriously. Particularly in academic environments. Yes, there's gay-bashing that goes on, especially for people who frequent bars in odd parts of town, but no woman with half a brain would wander by herself late at night in those parts, and I suppose the same holds true for men.

I remember feminist friends at college being wildly indignant that they couldn't act like men on the party circuit. I understood their indignation, but nothing rational was going to change the fact that drunk men lose all vestige of civilization.

As to outspoken counterculture Christians, perhaps you are not aware of the liberal swing many established Christian churches have taken in America--particularly in regards the ordination of openly gay clergy? It's splitting many of these churches in two: Episcopalian, Presbyterian, etc. I'd be surprised if there were not something similar going on in Australian churches.

Since I have openly become a Christian, the pagans, with one exception, have ceased communicating with me.
Sad but not surprising.

You'd hardly expect me to change my sexuality to suit others--why should I change my faith?
I meant to pretend, to go to a different congregation and pretend you were one of those things and see how you were treated. But don't do it, it's not a good idea.

As to outspoken counterculture Christians, perhaps you are not aware of the liberal swing many established Christian churches have taken in America--particularly in regards the ordination of openly gay clergy?
It's a good and long-overdue return to core Christian principles as taught by Jesus Christ. I approve completely and wish them well.

I must say I had near the same experience as you, Ristin. The one dif is my family didn't raise me any specific way. Yeah, my father was Christian, but he never ever pressed it on us. He gave us a bible to read, explained his opinion and let us choose for ourselves.

It's interesting though- religion is the same as philosophy: guidelines to life. There is no real right or wrong one, and (i think) all religion truly calls for ballence.

I'm athiest myself simply because it was too hard to buy- I'm a 'roo of science- always have been, ever since I was just a little ankle biter. I prefer to gaze into the world of religion and the duking out they do with eachother from a distance, and analyze it psychologically and philosophically.

Because I'm a strange person like that. :P and this is my second post like this today.

I have only met 2 christian people that have treated me kindly in my whole life and both were related to me. My family is full of priests and nuns sooo its a touch scary. As for others I have been spat upon, judged, dragged to see if i was possesed by a demon/devil, told that i was worthless, also was bullied to either become a christian or loose a friendship.

Though the worse was that a christian started shouting out devil child at me because i wore a pentagram. I believe what i want to believe in. I dont preach and demand others to follow my religion. hell i dont think a lot of people know what religion i follow in fear that my friends would also behave in such a manor.

I hate being pushed into being told to look up religion to prove that it's good. Seriously I dont care, I dont mean to be so rude about it but having people preach at me for years i really do not care for them trying to prove their point further. I already know that there are good people in every religion no matter what they are.

Though i think the sadest thing is the extremists that ruin it for everyone else and they are in every religion.

And just for the record. I stopped being christian when i was 10-12 after a few very large eye opening events. one was a priest that refused to do a funeral(sp?) for a dear family friend because the wifes side of the family were aboriginal. And that was on the actural day of the funeral once he realised he was talking to an aborginal woman on the phone. That opened my eyes up to racist people in sociaty no matter their status too.

I really am losing my ability to forgive these people. The more examples I see and the more I learn...the worse Christians look. I desperately need to see some examples of good Christians soon. Not just empty words and claims from Christians, but actual people that exist and who don't act like monsters to non-Christians.

It's easy to find Christians who think other Christians are great but not a single one has spent a day 'outside the faith' and been on the receiving end of Christian's persecution.

Edited 2008-01-16 10:56 (UTC)

"It's easy to find Christians who think other Christians are great but not a single one has spent a day 'outside the faith' and been on the receiving end of Christian's persecution."

This and some other comments you have made make me think you have had a singularly unpleasant personal experience. I can no more talk you out of your emotions with reason than you can talk me out of mine.

Singularly? No, I have normal and repeated bad experiences with Christians. Posts like this (that are unfavorable to Christians) are spawned by either myself or one of my friends being on the receiving end of bad treatment from Christians. It happens all the time, it's normal.

That's why I made my (stupid) suggestion you should try to see how Christians treat non-Christians to see my reasons.

This is a typical example of Christianities public works:
http://www.alternet.org/rights/35545/

What do you think?

No, it's not typical. Does grab headlines, though, doesn't it? Soup kitchens don't. Or cold weather shelters...

But I am pro-life. I -was- pro-choice. Went to the March in DC, signed petitions, voted for pro-choice candidates and everything at 21.
Then I had kids. What can I say--having 2 handicapped kids changes you.
People say these kids don't have a right to live because they will be a drain on the system and can never have "full" lives. Wouldn't it be easier, they whispered...

Your own sonograms change your view. Living with a being inside you who has emotions and sleep schedules and hiccups and exercise routines changes you. Almost having the child die in utero because he's strangling on his cord changes you.
A baby is not an "it." Partial birth abortion is evil.
Even the earliest of abortions will probably wreck havoc on the psyche of the mother, apart from what God thinks of the matter.
Speaking of pressure, how about those princely boyfriends who pressure their girlfriends into abortions?
I knew one well enough (and he did not know me well enough) to crow with pride that he had bullied his girlfriend who "tricked him" into getting her pregnant into having an abortion. He felt justified.
Funny, he's Catholic now. With a boatload of guilt and some kids from a middle marriage whom his wife does not want him to see.

If the mother doesn't want the child, adoption is an option. And if adoption doesn't happen, is foster care worse than death?
Not interested in arguing the particulars of this, but thought you would want a response.

'The 139 Club' in Brunswick St, Fortitude Valley (all ages). Call 139 Club
'The Red Cross Night Cafe' (youth). Call Red Cross
'Vinnes Men's Hostel' South Brisbane (all, but mainly adult males). Call St. Vincents Community Care
'Pindari Men's Hostel' Spring Hill (adult males). Call Salvation Army

I looked up Brisbane soup kitchens when you mentioned them. Assuming St. Vincents Community Care is a Christian church, that makes one which is church operated, one run by a Christian organization (Salvation army) and two by secular groups.

That puts my list of Christian churches making charitable contributions up to one. ^_^ And I bet there are more out there!

As to the pro-life and pro-choice debate, i remain "pro-compromise". People are getting abortions because it is the best choice they have available. Protesters fighting over wether the foetus should live or die is already a failure. They failed the baby and the mother.

My 'pro-compromise' solution would be to change the system so that abortion is not the best choice to an un-supported and under-informed expectant mother. I would put rescources into effective sex-ed because abstinance only education has consistantly failed. I would make sure preventative measures and contraceptives are available. I would make sure adoption is an option.

Basically...trying to prevent problem pregnancies and trying to ensure that other options (and not abortion) are the best solutions to an unwanted pregnancy.

Pro-life people only care about the maximum number of babies being born. They don't care about the mother's safety or welbeing, or the babies after birth...they don't support the mother or child, and they also oppose effective sex education, contraceptives and preventative measures. In every way they fail the mother.

Pro-choice only care that the woman has a choice to abort or not. They also don't support mother or child after birth, or just the mother after an abortion. And they don't do anything to get young people educated about sex and pregnancy, their options and so on... They also fail the mother, and of course the child.

It's not about pro-life or pro-choice...it's about helping people, and neither side even tries to do that. /rant

"Pro-life people only care about the maximum number of babies being born."

Uh. no. Doesn't follow. Not everyone who is pro-life follows Catholic rules concerning contraception.

Bethany Christian Services is a decent example of a supportive Christian organization for birth mothers. And in the broader world we do have social services, game plans for pregnant high schoolers, etc.
Single parenting can be done. Adoption can be done. All situations are difficult, but welcome to adulthood. Adults take responsibility for their actions.

Back to those soup kitchens. In all likelihood those other three exist with support from various churches. Same for your community food banks. And when I say support, I mean work and material goods from the congregations.
You could call them and ask...

Just googled food bank churches Brisbane and got this:

http://www.96five.com/page.asp?navstr=8,315&Pagecat=315

It's an old posting, but they are likely to do it again this year.
Cheer up, Ristin! The Christians are pitching in.

Uh. no. Doesn't follow. Not everyone who is pro-life follows Catholic rules concerning contraception.
I was about to post this myself actually. ^_^

Bethany Christian Services is a decent example of a supportive Christian organization for birth mothers.
I am a bit untrusting of that now...the Hillsong used such an organization to get a captive audience. Hillsong are very radical however, more a revenue hungry cult than anything genuinely Christian.

And in the broader world we do have social services, game plans for pregnant high schoolers, etc.
Single parenting can be done. Adoption can be done. All situations are difficult, but welcome to adulthood. Adults take responsibility for their actions.
That being part of my point in the whole 'pro compromise' rant...these services are there, so why is abortion the option some people prefer? Very worrying...

In all likelihood those other three exist with support from various churches. Same for your community food banks. And when I say support, I mean work and material goods from the congregations.
I think I mentioned before that individual Christians being charitable is a virtual certainty. Be it with seculat or church organized groups.

Cheer up, Ristin! The Christians are pitching in.
A very welcome developement! Or re-developement I whould say, because it used to be the norm. ^_^
Maybe that's part of the problem...people assumed the churches were doing this work, but only some were? I don't know.

Edited 2008-01-21 03:14 (UTC)

Oh, I should point out I was looking for similar cases in response to this:
http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20071114-Borders-between-charity-and-Hillsong-church-thin-.html

So it looks like widespread and typical behaviour to me.

I understand why you were disgusted with that priest, but I don't see the relation between blaming him and blaming God. I am sorry for the friends and family who had their sadness compounded, but really that priest had nothing to do with God, no matter what he says.

i don't blame god, i just don't believe in him any more, i believe in something different. this is my own belief, i'm not trying to push it on anyone else, but I wanted to state my opinion here just so people realized and understood it.

O, sorry I misunderstood. I thought you said that your turning point was that terrible non-funeral.

It's a common misunderstanding (due to poor communication from both sides).

Another common misconception is that non-Christians who are angry/afraid/defensive/offensive/critical/etc of bad Christians and the negative face of Christianity are attacking good Christians such as yourself.

I hope you don't feel you are being attacked here Juliet, and I know the rest of us are being too general when we say Christians are terrible...as opposed to specifying exactly who we are talking about and which actions we are referign to.

...I am not explaining this well, but we do know there are good people who are Christians. We are trying to keep the distinction clear between the bad examples we have seen and the good examples we have not (but hope are out there). And we are not trying to accuse you of acting the same way as the Christians we are upset about.

Don't suppose you could say "member of such and so church" to clarify?

I can't believe that no church in Australia that has its members voluntarily help the poor, the homeless and the aged and the otherwise needy, AND has a decent track record in regards counterculture groups or that these two kinds of churches never intersect.

Churches here don't help the poor at all. Nothing. It's something I keep an eye on because it's one of the activities I (desperately) looked for when I was losing my faith. There just is none, no charity involvement or charity efforts from churches here in Australia. I'm twenty nine now and I've been looking on and off for about twenty three years or so. I have never seen anything posted on the notice boards out front or during sermons.
Perhaps they help their own members if one falls on hard times?

The Salvation army are the closest thing to a church helping the poor...and when I brought them up as an example I started to wonder how exactly they distribute anything to the poor...I believe them must have some distribution method, even though we only see the stores that sell what people donate to the Salvation army. It's probably something out-of-site (like the homeless people)...problem and solution hidden away from everyday view.

There are other groups such as rotary clubs and the country womens association (they really are awesome) who help people in need and probably take in most of the Christians who want to do charitable works.

Recently a friend of mine forwarded me a list of Churches that are claimed to be gay friendly, and the list said there were two in Brisbane. I am pleasantly surprised that there are any.
I haven't decided yet how to safely approach them. This wouldn't be like going into a Church and listening to the sermon without telling them anything about myself...I would have to tell them I am gay and hope the list was accurate.

Edited 2008-01-17 11:54 (UTC)

it is one of the major bad experences i had. though that is that.

Along the same lines, there's the denial of services for suicides who are almost by definition mentally ill.

It's some solace that God is just, and the pettiness of his supposed agents on Earth doesn't make a whit of difference. Thank heavens there are churches that do not put themselves between people and God.

i have no wish to argue with you in someone else's journal. I respect that you hold these opinions, and hope you respect that I have my own, too, though they are different from yours. I think we should just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

I respect you, although I presumably (have to presume, you didn't say what they are) do not agree with your opinions.

I wish you a good day today.

Interesting reason and at such a young age too

For me I don't totally dismiss Christianity as a whole, only the fundies. I think that monies given to a church for charitable reasons is a good thing however I get disgusted when I hear of stories where food and assistance is used as leverage for converting people to religion in other parts of the world. I don't believe in forced conversions and see them as synonymous with problems in the world and especially the Middle East.

If you take religion down to its core beliefs such as its 10 commandments its a good thing because it teaches an honorable way to live amongst your fellow man, Its the emphasis on the Apostle Paul and or the aggressive approach I disagree with such as the crusades for Christ.

For me the most impacting thing I read yet was an article in US News and World Report (I believe) discussing Easter and how it was a pagan holiday of new life and how its been skewed by Christianity. Thing is it also talked about how Christianity came to be the dominant religion. First off, It was open to everyone so it encompassed many subsets, nomadic cultures, and outsiders whom despised Judism., Secondly it dismissed the rules of the passover since it claimed those were "jewish rules" and Thirdly it became popular with the ruling body since it could be all inclusive whereas with Judism you had to be a jew. So in a way it was the religion of rebelion and consequently didn't even really get a foothold in society till after the death of Christ.

I just take issue with how Christian dates miraculously seem to be celebrated at the same time as pagan holidays. Its too coincidental to not have not been planned that way.

It's well documented that they changed the dates to help subvert pagan religions and to spread into Europe.

Christianity is not open to anyone.
Scientists and free thinkers spring to mind, anyone who does not submit to the church or who raises ideas of their own are not welcome and never have been in the church.
And homosexuals who Christians gleefully decree will burn in hell for all eternity for being gay (the way 'god made them')...no matter how they act or if they repent, being homosexual condemns a person to eternal torture. I suppose it wouldn't be heaven if judgmental Christians couldn't hear the eternal screams of the non-persons burning forever in hell?

It's well documented that they changed the dates to help subvert pagan religions and to spread into Europe.

that = subversion of truth, so now if not lying is apart of the religion and changing dates etc.. is a form of mistruth how can people stand up for the religion and tell me how infalliable and truthful it is?

Thus you can see one of my head scratchers and eyebrow raisers as to whether or not I can believe the Bible as a book of truth. Now we know that through the passage of time things get misconstrued but altering dates to hide those of others beliefs is a bit well childish.

Here you go. Fun and informative investigation of the Bible's accuracy and factual basis.

Enjoy.

thankyou Ristin!

It only scratches the surface, but it is done in a fun way.

it is ^^. there are so many things that make you go hmm.

Easter originally coincided with Passover which is at roughly the same time of year. It was at that last Passover Feast and the days thereafter that Jesus was marked for death. So the Easter date isn't so out of the ball park. Since it's a remembrance and not a magical feast day, it hardly matters.

As to Christmas, well, at least at my church they acknowledge that December 25th isn't the proper date. But we like to celebrate Jesus' birth joyfully. Why not then as any other?

As far as corrupting Pagan religions is concerned, I'm afraid you may have a bit of a romanticized view of pagan religions induced by Victorian poets and armchair proto-anthropologists/mystics. I've studied them a good bit through the years (before solidifying my faith). I looked for answers, wandered at seasides, meditated in forests, voyaged to numerous stone circles, cast runes, studied old Celtic texts, the whole nine yards--well, except for "sky-clad worship" and kindred practices. Those are/were a bit beyond me.

I've been at StoneHenge on Midsummer's Day o quite some time ago, and let me tell you, open-minded as I was at that point, the "druids" were merely quaintly amusing (think Con goers who take themselves VERY seriously).

Most of the place was overrun with an open air drug-alcohol market (tents! with competitive prices posted!) which what few bobbies there were did not deign to hassle. Where did I find sanity and directions back to Salisbury? The Quakers. They had a tent there, too, and the whole thing upon reflection years past struck me as a parable for seeking the Divine.
It comes down to getting a good loaf of bread to restore the body and directions to where you really want to go.

(And no, they did not speak to me of Jesus as they helped me out. Seeds subtly planted may germinate years later.)

BTW, U.S. News and World Report really, really hates religious types. And headlines like that cause buzz and sell magazines.

Why I left the church

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Brisbane Soup Kitchens

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You are not the enemy, Juliet.

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